There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation.
Do you know that there is a reason for the regulations on light motorcycles, mopeds, mofas, Vespas, scooters and however you name them? It’s the number of fatal traffic accidents. And yes, there are probably over two dozens of these motorized vehicle classes which originally started with the idea of an “bicycle with a bit of motor” such as mopeds and mofas.
I really can’t see this in the traffic accident statistics. Yes, there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, but if you look deeper into them, those are in most cases “real” motorcycles and not those slower variants. And if you take a look at those eScooters, most accidents here are people driving those rental scooters while drunk. That’s a problem, but that’s also a problem you won’t solve by regulating the dude going to the train station in the morning.
We want to reduce traffic and oil consumption and can’t figure why people buy larger vehicles in North America?
number of fatal traffic accidents
Yeah, the issue isn’t the light motorcycles/mopeds/etc…
So dude is right, a whole class of vehicle is being being held back by regulation, and the premise/reason is ridiculous for a society that would like to see less cars on the road.
I love that viewpoint of American tech bros that “regulation baaad!”. Are you aware that the living standard in the EU is in many measures much better than in the US? To start with, everyone has health insurance here while US has some Third-World reality…
Yeah, the issue isn’t the light motorcycles/mopeds/etc.
A thing which has a motor and where the human delivers less than 30% of the power at max speed is a light motorcycle. The reason for that is with more power you need a heavier battery and a much heavier frame with better brakes. You need a solid helmet which again makes it impractical to pedal at power because it becomes hot. At 40 km/h, it becomes to chill in the winter and at 45 or so, you really need protective clothing because otherwise in a fall, the asfalt will strip your skin off. At that point you are very clearly becoming a motorcycle. You have lost thr technical sweet spot of a bicycle at that point. There have been many attempts to blur that line (guess what the name “Mofa” comes from or “Moped” or why these things have pedals which nobofy uses).
And we have motor-powered bikes since a long time - over 75 years -, and regulations have evolved out of need. Traditinally, the motor was a combustion engine - but that’s the only difference and it is totally irrelevant for traffic safety.
That’s not totally correct. Here in Germany we have so called “Mofas” which translates to “motorized bicycle”. Those are different from eBikes and heavily regulated. There are age limits, drivers licence, insurance requirements, regulations where you are allowed to drive and so on. And yes, they are also restricted to 25km/h. Why are there this heavy regulations which are not in place for our pedelecs? The reason is plain racism in combination with “old people hate young people”. Those Mofas were popular with young migrant workers back in the 50s and 60s. And therefore they were regulated as fuck. You will see stuff like this with modern eScooters where the whole class will be restricted because they are popular with younger people.
What I wanted to say was exactly this: There is a rule in place that basically created artificial differences between the same thing. A 25km/h vehicle with a motor and pedals is heavily restricted, another one is totally free. Which makes no sense.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Then they could simply buy a small bike, with all the attached rules, like driver’s license and so on.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros. There are also age limits in place. So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or “simply buy a small bike” with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h? I’m not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros.
Damn, and I was thinking that in Italy licences are expensive…
So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or “simply buy a small bike” with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
The problem is that this way you would have a young person on what is basically a bike but without even the smallest knowlegde of how to behave on a public road.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h?
Probably they follow different rules to be approved to be on the street.
I’m not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
This way you basically made out a scooter out of your bike, that is what the regulation probably want to avoid.
This way you basically made out a scooter out of your bike, that is what the regulation probably want to avoid.
And that is exactly the point: The regulation doesn’t make any sense. It is the same vehicle. Me pedalling doesn’t bring any safety improvement. It’s not suddenly a scooter, it’s the same vehicle.
There are a lot of countries where throttles on eBikes are legal and they do not have much problems either. So yeah, there might be a big legal difference, but that is totally arbitrary and we could do better.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day?
Fine by me, just say them to obtain a driver’s license and insurance for a scooter, since basicaly it is what they would drive. Or drop the need of the license for the scooters and light bike.
The point is that a ebike with a throttles is basically a scooter (or bike) and then it is a different things, with differnt rules.
But is there really a fundamental difference? If I build a throttle on my bicycle, it still has the same breaks, the same lights, the same driver, the same max speed. The only difference is that I do not have to pedal, everything else is exactly the same. There are countries where it is totally legal to do this and others where you get quite harsh fines. There is no reason for it to be a different thing.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
We actually need to end the “gig worker” business model where they’re racing around all day and reckless driving translates to more money.
Do you know that there is a reason for the regulations on light motorcycles, mopeds, mofas, Vespas, scooters and however you name them? It’s the number of fatal traffic accidents. And yes, there are probably over two dozens of these motorized vehicle classes which originally started with the idea of an “bicycle with a bit of motor” such as mopeds and mofas.
I really can’t see this in the traffic accident statistics. Yes, there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, but if you look deeper into them, those are in most cases “real” motorcycles and not those slower variants. And if you take a look at those eScooters, most accidents here are people driving those rental scooters while drunk. That’s a problem, but that’s also a problem you won’t solve by regulating the dude going to the train station in the morning.
We want to reduce traffic and oil consumption and can’t figure why people buy larger vehicles in North America?
Yeah, the issue isn’t the light motorcycles/mopeds/etc…
So dude is right, a whole class of vehicle is being being held back by regulation, and the premise/reason is ridiculous for a society that would like to see less cars on the road.
I love that viewpoint of American tech bros that “regulation baaad!”. Are you aware that the living standard in the EU is in many measures much better than in the US? To start with, everyone has health insurance here while US has some Third-World reality…
A thing which has a motor and where the human delivers less than 30% of the power at max speed is a light motorcycle. The reason for that is with more power you need a heavier battery and a much heavier frame with better brakes. You need a solid helmet which again makes it impractical to pedal at power because it becomes hot. At 40 km/h, it becomes to chill in the winter and at 45 or so, you really need protective clothing because otherwise in a fall, the asfalt will strip your skin off. At that point you are very clearly becoming a motorcycle. You have lost thr technical sweet spot of a bicycle at that point. There have been many attempts to blur that line (guess what the name “Mofa” comes from or “Moped” or why these things have pedals which nobofy uses).
And we have motor-powered bikes since a long time - over 75 years -, and regulations have evolved out of need. Traditinally, the motor was a combustion engine - but that’s the only difference and it is totally irrelevant for traffic safety.
That’s not totally correct. Here in Germany we have so called “Mofas” which translates to “motorized bicycle”. Those are different from eBikes and heavily regulated. There are age limits, drivers licence, insurance requirements, regulations where you are allowed to drive and so on. And yes, they are also restricted to 25km/h. Why are there this heavy regulations which are not in place for our pedelecs? The reason is plain racism in combination with “old people hate young people”. Those Mofas were popular with young migrant workers back in the 50s and 60s. And therefore they were regulated as fuck. You will see stuff like this with modern eScooters where the whole class will be restricted because they are popular with younger people.
What I wanted to say was exactly this: There is a rule in place that basically created artificial differences between the same thing. A 25km/h vehicle with a motor and pedals is heavily restricted, another one is totally free. Which makes no sense.
Then they could simply buy a small bike, with all the attached rules, like driver’s license and so on.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Rules are imposed as consequences.
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros. There are also age limits in place. So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or “simply buy a small bike” with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h? I’m not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
Damn, and I was thinking that in Italy licences are expensive…
The problem is that this way you would have a young person on what is basically a bike but without even the smallest knowlegde of how to behave on a public road.
Probably they follow different rules to be approved to be on the street.
This way you basically made out a scooter out of your bike, that is what the regulation probably want to avoid.
And that is exactly the point: The regulation doesn’t make any sense. It is the same vehicle. Me pedalling doesn’t bring any safety improvement. It’s not suddenly a scooter, it’s the same vehicle.
There are a lot of countries where throttles on eBikes are legal and they do not have much problems either. So yeah, there might be a big legal difference, but that is totally arbitrary and we could do better.
Fine by me, just say them to obtain a driver’s license and insurance for a scooter, since basicaly it is what they would drive. Or drop the need of the license for the scooters and light bike.
The point is that a ebike with a throttles is basically a scooter (or bike) and then it is a different things, with differnt rules.
But is there really a fundamental difference? If I build a throttle on my bicycle, it still has the same breaks, the same lights, the same driver, the same max speed. The only difference is that I do not have to pedal, everything else is exactly the same. There are countries where it is totally legal to do this and others where you get quite harsh fines. There is no reason for it to be a different thing.